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Behind The Message Live

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well good morning everybody as you can see this is not normal what we're doing right now on the stage every week after the message we usually gather Ben how are you little faster myself we gather up in a room and record a podcast based on the message that we hear on Sundays with the speaker and we thought for Thanksgiving weekend it would be cool to look back through the past year and take some of the most talked about and most impacting messages preached here and take the 4 top messages they were all bows no not really Steve had some in there too so so we took four messages and we're discussing one on each service today and so we're gonna do a live podcast our podcast behind the message and so we throughout this morning through this service we're gonna have a message line up on the screen he's getting darker and darker we're gonna have a there it is actually they're not gonna let us do it today yeah I guess there's no there's gonna be a line a number on the screen you can text it during our talk today to comment to have questions I know some of you are texting during the services normally now you have permission okay so this is good so it'll be up there throughout the service but is that okay can we do a podcast this morning all right so yeah feel free to be vocal and however you want to make some noise this morning you guys ready to begin let's do it all right here we go from West Side Church from Bend Oregon you're listening to behind the message each week we take you behind what we teach here at Westside I'm Ben Fleming I'm an ear broker and we are here live at the 11:15 and we are here with Pastor bolster and welcome bow thanks and yeah and this is this is a live setting I've done this a few times and you have never once loved that intro and believe me I'm thinking about it a lot today everybody says that we can that we don't actually have to say it every time because Evan can't come up with something to help me out every time yeah so but we're talking through some of the most listened to and comment on messages from the last year and one of those messages that that came to the time I think this was actually the at the top was a message you delivered on shame what it does in our lives and how to become free of shame you know live just over a year ago and so I want to talk about this today and what it looks like when we kind of step out of that shadow of shame and kind of the overall point of the message was understanding the role shame plays and separating us from the presence of Jesus and how essential it is for anyone who wants to be truly free so we have a clip actually from that message that you gave talking about what this is to have shame active in our lives let's take a look at that we all have things in our history addictions bitterness anger frustrations debt wrong mindset all kinds of things that hover and and kind of lurk in the background and keep us from wanting to move forward even though nobody else can see them even though when we come into this room we all look pretty well-adjusted we all look pretty shame free but there are these things that live beneath the surface and they're powerful and shame I think is one of the most damaging powerful things we face in fact I'm gonna say something kind of big I think it might be more powerful than sin in its long-term effects because sin can be so quickly forgiven we have such a gift with that but shame is really hard to deal with yeah shame more powerful than sin do you still agree with that sentence a year later still agree with a year ago beau yep I do and that's not true of every issue but that is for sure true of this one yeah I think shame in its in its the core definition would be disgrace and so if you look at if you separate that word and say disgrace to remove grace from someone that's why it's so powerful it's it really is pervasive throughout and I started this message I I gave it to a group of women 800 women one night and it was so intense and powerful and important and I was thinking women just uniquely deal with shame and then the more I started going the more I realized and we all do a shame shame is so damaging and again sin can be forgiven but the effects of shame if we don't get out from under it it will direct the rest of our lives one of the phrases that often comes up when we talk about shame as we use this term living in shame which communicates to me that we almost find some kind of comfort there even though it's shame it's obviously it's a bad thing it's a negative but we do find some comfort there does that does that sound accurate it does I think sometimes we confuse humility and humiliation like there's that you are humiliated which is discordant and awful and terrible feeling we are supposed to be humble and so sometimes we just wrap ourselves up in unworthiness and live there sometimes it's easier to live unworthy and disqualified than it is to say I'm gonna believe for something more I'm gonna believe to feel like I fit inside his love and it seems to me that the church our job really is to be a place where people kind of come out of shame and yet for so many maybe church has been a place where they feel shame more than anywhere else in life and work at home I'm fine and then I come to church and it's like oh wow I'm ashamed of myself have we you know it and just our church but church in general have we been culprits in that sure yeah I think and you can see it as old as time that I think the old testament to me feels like the place where we really discover humanity's response toward God that we'll always be broken if our view of him is broke so in the Old Testament we see a broken view of humanity toward the broken view of God and in then Jesus comes and says I'm gonna show them God myself I'm gonna show them who God is and then we can see like real God who forgives the woman and sets her free even though everybody wants to stone her and has the right to stone her but so in the Old Testament we see so many people get buried under that but we see in Noah's sons response to his he gets drunk and naked and one son points and laughs and the other son covers him and and it's it's in arguably a failure on Noah's part that's not how a patriarch behaves but the failure to on the part of the son and I think we have honestly it's almost that stark we have those two choices we either cover or we point and laugh and we are a point in laughs society we just are we are a point and judge I think it makes us feel better about our own lives when we see a really public failure and we you know batted around on Facebook and make it the fodder for the day and joke about how it's ridiculous people are and I think it just makes us feel better about the stuff we know is lurking in our own background that isn't the same kind of train wreck but we know it's there and we even feel that way a lot of times about people in the church big preachers or pastors of big churches we we see that they have some kind of public shame going on and then that's out it and all this stuff happens and a lot of Christians even are like aha I always knew that you were sneaky and bla bla bla and it's in a sense in essence what we're saying a lot of times it's ah you shamed the church I knew you would and we feel good about it how can we how can we talk that way I guess about the church that we are claiming ourselves to be a part of yeah I think we make ourselves a part of the problem and all of that and and when we remove grace from any situation whether it it was a huge failure or something that's happened to someone when we remove grace we've aligned ourselves with the plot of the evil one and I know that's a strong statement but I believe it's so strongly that we either grace is either scandalous or it's nothing and so we can either give grace outrageously or we point and say oh my gosh I'm so glad that's not my life I'm so glad that wasn't me and I I just think we've got to get good at being a culture that gives grace and honor and covering and makes people feel like you are exactly as unworthy as I am and I am exactly as unworthy as you are and yet we are scandalously loved so how do we navigate a problem with somebody or navigate a problem in our own lives I talk about sometimes how my high school football and baseball coach was screamer and a Yeller and really old school and me and kind of a sick twisted way I really liked it I liked that he yelled at me you should probably do that more in the office of it and but really all of it came back to I knew where I stood with him at all times yeah he always spoke his mind to me I knew what I was wrong and what were holes in my game and I knew what I was good at because he would praise me for what I was good at and he would be negative about the things that I was bad at and so that led me to believe like man that that doesn't necessarily work for everybody but sometimes I think we can we can make the mistake of thinking you pointing out my faults and you telling me what's wrong with me is you trying to shame me are you trying to drag me down and sometimes it is with people sometimes we are trying to shame people but how do we navigate it ourselves or how do we help someone navigate it so that we can point out the truth that's happening in their lives but veer away from the shame game I like that question because I think it's important to know what what grace isn't and grace isn't dishonesty we always want to be honest and I'm a truth teller by nature and if you come into my office and say what got to I do about this dating relationship tell you right of it you did for me I think we should change this podcast to dating suggestions to me there's a there's a real line between when we talk about someone's actions and decisions or when we talk about who they are as a person and so you as a person I hope through my words will always feel just desperately loved by Jesus but also here's truth and I can't alter truth and I can't change it for you and Jesus wouldn't change it for you he's super straightforward in the he shows this outrageous love of God but he is straightforward about you brood of vipers why are you doing what you do that you're doing so I think that that's important and I think we can work all day to rebuild our culture to give one another honor but primarily I think what we have to do is deal inside ourselves with how we respond to shame because I can't tell you how many people have told me I was in a sinful relationship where I was doing something simple and I saw you at church and I felt ashamed I didn't say anything to them I didn't do anything I think that was what they were feeling and so you can feel shamed by the church whether or not the church has done anything to make you feel that way we can't determine how we deal with shame based on how people respond to us that's not excusing the church needing to deal better with people and and love them but we have to deal with shame we have to deal with it in our own lives and determine no matter how someone constantly comes at me making me feel ashamed making me feel like I'm not worried they make me feel like I don't belong I am gonna stand in the identity of Jesus Christ and I'm gonna believe that through his son God smuggled himself into humanity and blew up shame from the inside Lou it up and so I can stand in that and I can stand in that whether or not everybody else does it right with me or not because they're just not going to they're gonna get it wrong I intentionally and accidentally so even that example speaks to the power of shame in it of itself those so that someone can see you and feel shame because it's so deep-rooted in their lives that that speaks to the incredible power of it and you make a distinction in the message that you gave between what shame is and the negatives of shame but also the positives of feeling remorse for mistakes we don't I think you said it this way the person that doesn't feel remorse for mistakes is a sociopath Sherlock yeah Sherlock teaches us all that but so what is the difference between feeling remorse that drives us to you know repentance and moving in a better direction and then crossing over into shame which is negative and crushes us yeah I'm not sure all the technical difficulties but I would say one good place to look is how long it lasts when you've been forgiven you get to go free and and so I think there's some tools we can build into our lives that that wasn't your question but I think really looking at how long it lasts and how it makes you feel do I feel like unworthy but but greatly loved or do I feel unworthy and loads and not like I can't even approach God or I can't sit in these seats because no one would believe Who I am or what I've done or what's been done to me and so I think it's really important to see the distinction there like has it been hanging around for a long time that's not God that's not guilt that shame does it make you feel like you despise yourself or despise living that's not guilt that shame does it spur you to action to make restitution to make confession to build habits into your life that will keep you from making mistakes again that sounds more like something that's godly repentance leads to change and it says worldly repentance leads to death and a lot of comments kind of Willie sighs one question says how do you get past a shameful moment when someone very close to you reminds you of that shame Oh tell him to stop I mean tell him to stop because knowing people only have access to your life as you allow it and sometimes again we just keep waiting for the world to change to make our lives work but I treat that there I treat that in my life like the house is on fire I'm gonna get out of that relationship if somebody keeps reminding me of something or this is where you blown it this is how you could blow it in the future get out of that or just set some boundaries they may not realize that's what they're doing but it's inappropriate it's inappropriate on every level it shouldn't be happening a strip this really shouldn't be happening and it makes it more difficult because shame can already come from all these different directions you know you're reminded from somebody but then also Thanksgiving you feel shame you don't need somebody telling you I just feel really warm I'm so cozy so I'm sweating this has gone too far but shame you come from so many different directions I mean you you are reminded from somebody else that you know but also how it comes into your life isn't just what you've done that you made a stupid decision and you went on did that sometimes it's something that happens to you maybe you've suffered abuse or something I've I've helped a lot of kids before who their parents got a divorce of their dad left them when they were really young and they're suffering from the shame of a father that they didn't even know walking out on them because it comes into their hearts that they feel like they weren't desirable or something isn't the directions at speaks to the power of shame as well yeah it's true and shame will always keep us hiding it will always keep us back keep our real selves locked inside and so I belong to a Widow's group it's quite large it's young widows and we have this hashtag that's called team awkward and it's that moment when you're in a conversation and somebody doesn't know you're young widow and you say well my husband died and it's just deadly quiet everyone's just quiet and you're like so how do I real the conversation back to something that doesn't make people feel so uncomfortable and I can't explain it but it feels you feel shame you feel like I just made the whole world uncomfortable I don't fit I'm an albatross here I don't know how to and that makes no sense nobody wanted to become a widow but the Bible itself says you won't any longer remember the reproach of your widowhood the shame of your widowhood so even Seth you experienced that wasn't your fault that you had nothing to do with can cause shame because shame is the is the original separator shame is the thing that I think it's the plot of the evil one that's always after us and trying to get us to feel like we're it we're just qualified somebody texted and said I grew up in church as a pastor's kid the atmosphere was one that if you look good everything was good and that all has come crashing down how do you pick up the pieces how do you get past that shame when I think as pastor Steve said in an earlier service the veneer falls off you wouldn't know anything about pastors kids would you I wouldn't know anything about it I have both been one and and had owned some pastors kids myself I think it's it's a give back to new our original identity Who am I in God and how much is that up for grabs how much am I going to sell that identity off to whoever decides I should feel that way or however memories want to impact how I feel about Who I am so knowing who you are in him and knowing that if I'm nothing else in this whole life I am loved and that's enough I think is a pretty good blaster against shame and so I've had to do I think I talked in this message about my most shameful moment the moment I didn't want it I most didn't want to tell anyone about and I said that I had I had said something to my husband when he was very sick that was really wrong and and I had had to build a statement like a bullet that I shot into that memory every time it came to me and it was I cared for my husband faithfully but imperfectly for 30 years I made a lot of mistakes but neither he nor Jesus remembers them and so that was something that I said said said said said every time it hit me every time I thought about that and felt like you're so if people knew who you really were if people knew what you know and it has really changed my whole outlook on that situation and on 30 years and that's been really important so I think it's really important to build something build some weapons that you can shoot into those things that come back to you over and over again yeah and Who am I really I'm not that I'm not the co pastor's kid I once was I don't belong to the dynasty pastor's family I once did but I am this and this is who I will be and this is what matters and Jesus spent so much of his ministry in the Gospels finding people who are pretty much shamed by they're very conservative very religious Jewish society that Jesus lived in and he goes to those people that are on the outside of the cool kids if you will because of their behavior how they were born their background there were Samaritan they're not full-blooded jewish they're all these issues and Jesus finds them and in the way that he speaks to them even if it's in a moment I read it that he is acknowledging their value in spite of the shame maybe that has been thrown on them and I wonder if we can do a better job inside the walls of the Church of yeah taking that as our example we sure can and I think um the early church fathers they had an immutable truth was that confession was an immovable part of discipleship that you couldn't become a true follower of Jesus Christ without true confession and some of that went off of course in my opinion and becoming confession to a priest because James clearly says confess your faults to each other and you'll be healed again my take on that Scripture is not necessarily that we'll be healed of every sickness but that we will be healed of the sickness of shame if we live in a culture where we can openly confess and say guess what I am NOT who I appear to be sometimes on the outside and be received and loved inside of that I think that is really powerful and that's the community that I think Jesus came to establish on planet Earth one where people could be their true selves without hiding because the opposite of confession is concealment and so concealment has power over you anything you keep hidden has power over you and you live inside of that so when he says who the Sun sets free is free indeed free for what free to be who they really are free to free to look like they look free to live like they live free to make mistakes free to be sinful and worthy creatures and still be loved inside of his grace and inside of community Wow so maybe during our turn and greet at the beginning the services we just confess to a stranger in the last year have have been seen at a therapist who's been just it's been rough man it's been so good but he just hasn't let up on on me getting to the bottom of some things in my life that I've always kept hidden some things that I experienced that I just hadn't talked about and I kept saying it's okay I just have made it small I've made it small and manageable but because I had made that pain smaller manageable he kept saying to me where have you taken that shame where where'd you go with it I was like just kind of in here and he was like how's that working for you so far well not great and so he made me go through a course of sitting down with people not everyone not from this stage but with people who were impacted by the situation and with people who I knew would walk me through it into freedom with grace and so like a half-dozen people that I was able to sit down and go okay here's my real story here's what you really need to know about what I've experienced in my life and it has been life-changing to to get with people that really could say I love you no matter what I the world still standing once you share the thing you never thought you could share and it was been really beautiful so and that was all up to me to do no the church couldn't have come around me and convinced me to do that nobody knew about it I had to do it yeah so are you a proponent of professional help counseling for people several people have talked about depression and comments things that that may be years ago we would just say well we'll just pray and that'll be it but you talk about having a therapist so what is the value then of saying hey I need I need help and if you're a proponent of it why if some people I know believe that that's kind of a cop-out for the church you know that we say well we just pray hard enough it'll come out of it and if you're not praying then you don't have the faith in order to go well if you are a proponent of therapy which obviously it sounds like you are then why is that not a cop-out for the church well so people come to me with their despair and I am glad they come to me and they do it often and I will ask them you know on a scale of one to ten how desperate are you and they'll say gosh I'm like a ten or I'm a nine and a half or something and I'll say I'm like a theologian I can do like a four I'm not sure and for that I don't I could tell you I know what my knowledge base is and it's Bible is spirituality and I believe in it so yeah I'm absolutely and so we'll connect them with someone who's trained and skilled I am a fan of of connecting with someone who knows God and who can help bring those things together and there's some really great therapists out there who do both and if you land with a therapist that that isn't that doesn't give you like a faith-based view I think it's good to maybe also have some I'll counseling but yeah I'm a huge believer in counseling it's been huge huge for me and I don't have the answer why isn't it just enough to pray and wave our hands and say it's done we there are there are a lot of things we provide here that are healing and life-giving and wonderful but there are also things where we partner with people to get to people have skill but you know we also don't do appendectomy here I want to show one more yeah I want to show one more clip from your message I'm gonna pivot right off at that point where you talked about people who have experienced shame because of suffering in their lives and how we should respond as people of faith in this community so let's take a look at that but more than that we rejoice in our sufferings because we know that suffering produces perseverance and perseverance character and character hope and hope does not put us to shame because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given us we already have inside of us what we need to do with shame and part of it involves leaning in a little bit to our suffering and saying I refuse to cave in to the idea that just because there's something hard in my life it means I don't fit into the beautiful American Church just because I struggle doesn't mean I don't fit here just because I feel disqualified in some areas doesn't mean I'm unworthy to worship the same God with the same people who died for all of us we have to be a culture that's best when you go through suffering I go through suffering we walk through these things together and we like Jesus despised the shame of it because it will hold us back Wow good yeah Debra watch yourself speak and you just want to go to just bring it down that is kind of cruel to bring somebody on the stage back we're gonna just watch you and see your reaction to yourself so do you have shame after watching so it's kind of a tough Scripture even that you brought up right yeah we glory in our sufferings now when you're walking through your husband going through ALS and in the darkest moment when if somebody came up to you and patted you on the shoulder and said hey be encouraged you know you should glory in this you know I find it hard to believe ya that you wouldn't have some kind of physical violence for them so so how can we make this actually work in the tough times yeah it's hard and I'll tell you this there's no easy way to get to be a single person at 52 there's no easy way either you've been through a painful the death of a marriage or the death of a spouse or you've been waiting a long time for something that didn't happen but there are vastly different ways that Christians respond to people in all those circumstances I mean I got so much sympathy and grace and empathy and love and Twinkies on my desk but many of my friends who went through divorce so the death of a married at that time really felt great shame but but still we have this scripture that stands as a foothold for our hope that says I glory in my suffering I lean into it because I know it is a portal through which I can experience the freedom forgiveness and grace of Jesus Christ I know it and I don't have I know how empty that can sound to someone who's in the middle of suffering I only know that I've experienced it to be true and so our suffering again what one thing that helped me a lot was to say I will not feel humiliated because I'm alone I will embrace humility I feel humbled I feel humbled that people stepped in and you know clean up my gutters and fix my car do whatever I feel humbled by those things but I choose not to be humiliated by them humiliation brings confusion and humility bring clarity humility helps you know who you are and that you're flawed and that you're broken but you're also being restored but humiliation is that swirl of confusion where you cannot see beyond your own situation or your own sorrow or on whatever so lean into humility but forsake humiliation somebody else text in guilt says I've done something bad shame says I am bad mm-hmm I made a bad decision that affected my marriage my husband forgave me but I can't forgive myself and believe that I am NOT a bad person so how do I move forward yeah I'd say a bill and just step one build a bullet build a statement that you're gonna say into your own shame every time and I'm gonna tell you this is not about your husband and it's not about your relationship this is about you letting yourself go free and so build a statement that you can say every time that is a truth statement and whoever texted that if you want to email me I'll help you build one but say it all that time and every time it hits you keep saying that and that's how you match and align your thoughts with the thoughts of Christ toward you and then see somebody see somebody who's gonna help you work through some of those things and and say I'm stuck at you I'm gonna say you shouldn't be stuck you're forgiven by Jesus and your husband you shouldn't be stuck you get to move free and so we it's work it's work to live free in this world where everything wants to push us back and make a small yeah which which is more difficult to come out of shame because of mistakes or shame because of circumstances there happened to us I think it's exactly the same I really do I think you know I think just because I've talked to so many people in both situations that been alluded to people who have been abused when they're small and I cited statistics in my message that one in four people before the age of 18 have been sexually abused other reports say roughly 67% have been sexually abused already our our image gets distorted so quickly and so I don't know that it's any different I really don't I and I think it's different for different people - yeah and so offering the Bible as permission to come out of shame I think is has really been what resonated I remember when you preached this the amount of response we saw at the end of that service people just flooding up here to be free of that shame that's Jesus that's the gospel that's grace that is what he's all about is saying you don't have to live under this shame anymore maybe you thought religion said yeah you do but you don't right yeah and we talked about how freedom is a gift and a skill it's an event and a skill and so that moment where we leave our stuff at his feet and say I'm walking away from this and then all the moments after that where we keep saying nope not mine nope that's not mine that's not my suitcase I don't carry about anymore I don't belong to that anymore I am this yeah and it feels frustrating that it's work but it's worthy work it's good work and everyone else you know is doing the work or they're not and so let's be those who do the work and those who help other people let's just intentionally give honor to other people even if we think they don't deserve it give honor you can't I don't think it can hurt yeah and let's create an environment where this is the norm right where this is what people expect do we come into this place not to pile on shame or point fingers but to find freedom from it because that is the gospel right yeah we've got a scream our heads off just yelling for people to make it yeah I didn't want to cheer people on and if you're doing it wrong I'm just gonna trust that His grace is gonna straighten you out that's good that's good all right well we are out of time today that went fast I've encouraged you all for these messages have just been great today you can find a podcast anywhere you get podcasts we're on our website behind the message org and we thought we want to thank you 1115 for being here today and that's all we have today the prayer wall is open please see our prayer team at the wall as you exit if you'd like to do that otherwise we'll see you next week thanks so much

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